We do have to take sides.. however our identity is in Christ! Not black man nor white asian nor other. By trying to soley identify ourselves either as black or white totally negates our position in him. As Christians we should be at harmony as 1 in Him who created us. When I first joined the army i was told that we were no longer to identify by the color of our skin but by the green uniform that bound us. We would now have to totally rely on each other to survive. This holds so true when you go into combat.

Pastor Anyabile describes in his message that I refered to, when you go into a cafeteria and go to take a seat you in moments are scanning the room trying to identify that person or persons most like me looking to and fro wanting to be with that like kind when you do sit you soon find that you are totally not alike. I’m paraphrasing here so hopefully i didnt screw it up to bad.

I just don’t think it should be that way. From what I understand thus far in my biblical studies, I think it must grieve the heart of God when we take sides and make our ethnic identity on par or even greater than our spiritual one.

It can. You mentioned in your last post that it has to start at the top, and you’re right.

I was speaking to my good friend and co’worker yesterday and we were discussing another issue and I mentioned 3 things 1) message 2)committment 3) experience.

my question is how would these fit here? 1 the congregation must understand what our mission statement is. “we want a diverse congregation” I think Paul Sheppard,Rodney Woo, and Thabiti Anyabwile are on the right track and they’re may be others out there as well.

They’re will have to be some unlearning and relearning that will have to take place. Thabiti Anyabwile delivered a message at t4g conference titled Bearing the Image: Identity, the Work of Christ, and the Church
you can listen to it over at sovereing grace ministires but its a good starting point to also help in this area.

our committement both from the pulpit and the pews have to be there. I think i addressed our experience in my previous statement.

I think it always comes from the top, meaning the headship of a church. To the extent that it is promoted at that level, is to the extent that I think you might see diversity. The congregation are for the most part, sheep and will generally follow the direction of the leadership. If a pastor engages a homiletic with a particular definition towards a certain people group and never lays the foundation of the unity in the body that transcends racial and ethnic lines, then we really can’t expect the congregation to be concerned about diversity. Moreover, this narrow focus might have the impact of discouraging others from participating and I think we see this as well.

I consider one of my former churches who started with the foundation of diversity and promoted. As the church grew, the racial balance of whites, blacks and hispanics maintained.

I send out to my customers and friends inspirationals each day. Then about a month ago I stopped because I had a couple people tell me I was overdoing it. So I allowed them to discourage me. 3 days ago one of my longtime customers called me up to buy a car, but also to chastise me because I stopped she told me that because of what I was doing I not only encouraged her but also her son who is now overly excited to call his mom and talk about what he’s just read in scripture and is now preparing to start a family of his own.

Our positions in life are as more about others than most times about us.

Just a few quick comments. You wrote:

Let’s remove the C and A labels for a moment and consider what the bible does say about prayer. (Btw, I didn’t catch on right away about the C and A..duh!).

1) We are commanded to pray
2) We are to pray always
3) We are to pray according to God’s will

#3 is a problem for Calvinism in intercession as far as I am concerned. The Calvinist cannot pray for the salvation of the lost and know that it is in accordance with God’s will while the Arminian can. The Calvinist may even be at odds with God’s will by saying, “Lord move on that persons heart” since it may be God’s will to pass that person over (unless we want to take a rather strained view of what it means for God to move on someones heart).

I also believe that prayer is as much about our building our faith as it is moving the heart of God. Although, I would contend that our prayers are in response to what God has purposed in His heart anyway, and the Spirit inside of us guides our prayers to align with God’s purpose.

I agree that God moves our hearts to pray for the lost which I think creates further problems for intercessory prayer in Calvinism. You seem to agree that many who have been prayed for will never respond to God in faith, and yet God still moves our hearts to pray for them. If Calvinism is true then God is moving our hearts to pray for the salvation of those that He does not want to save and has already determined to damn for eternity. So why does the Holy Spirit guide us to pray for the very souls that He has determined to “pass over” and never visit with saving grace?

The Calvinist might want to say that this could be for the purpose of compounding their guilt for rejecting Christ, but again, that only really makes sense in Arminianism IMO. In Calvinism the reprobate isn’t really rejecting anything since God never intended for them to be saved nor provided salvation for them (which really begins to strain the meaning of “rejection”), so how could further “rejection” compound their guilt? However, in Arminianism God did indeed provide for the salvation of all and desires all to be saved (conditionally), so the continual work of the Holy Spirit in the reprobates heart could be grounds for further condemnation if they continue to spurn that grace and reject God’s provision.

But now we are quickly moving into other issues and I am not looking for a full-on debate of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. The point is that I believe Piper is wrong to assert that intercessory prayer makes more sense in a deterministic paradigm. There are questions that need to be dealt with in both views but intercessory prayer makes just as much sense from an Arminian perspective as from a Calvinist one; and of course I think it makes more sense from the Arminian perspective.

God Bless,
Ben

1) We are commanded to pray
2) We are to pray always
3) We are to pray according to God’s will

While every prayer that I utter will be heard, it may not necessarily be answered. Consider what James says in 5:14-15 regarding prayer for the sick. Now does God heal everybody who prays? No. We come to God in faith that He will move.

I also believe that prayer is as much about our building our faith as it is moving the heart of God. Although, I would contend that our prayers are in response to what God has purposed in His heart anyway, and the Spirit inside of us guides our prayers to align with God’s purpose. Consider Romans 8:26-27.

So getting back to the conundrum of praying for the lost, if I believe in unconditional election (which I do btw), the problem is I don’t know whom God has chosen. And my response to all should be “Lord move on that persons heart”. The A has no guarantee of a person coming to Christ anymore than the C does.

I think another subtle point you are missing is that the concept of unconditional election eliminates the self-determination. In either perspective, I do consider that it is the person making their choices equally and I think that this is Piper’s point and why our prayers are important.

I do not believe Piper is limiting the means of presenting the gospel to prayer and preaching, but using preaching as a contrast to prayer.

Your assertions about different means are correct. But since conversion is in response to the gospel message, there has to at some point be a proclamation of that message. Or then what is the person responding to, your friendship? No, I believe God will use anything He pretty much wants to as a means of drawing a person, whether it be friendship, public preaching, dreams, etc. But it still does come down to the gospel being heard.

I also think that “preaching the gospel” is not limited to public sermons. Preaching is just declaring, laying it out. If in the course of your friendship with someone is lost, you share the good news of Jesus Christ, that is preaching the gospel.